04 May 2008

Trinity Talk

Ok, folks. What do you think about this issue? On the one hand, most Christians believe in the concept of the Trinity. There is one God, and He is subdivided into three Persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. These three are one, but you must follow the *magical* prayer formula to be heard properly. It goes like this: You must pray TO God the Father in the power of God the Holy Spirit, in the Name of God the Son (Jesus). Any other way and you will mess it up completely. The Holy Spirit, I've heard, is SHY and so you're not supposed to pray directly to Him. (Yes, I've heard that preached before! LOL!)

On the other hand, you have folks from the United Pentecostal Church and just about every other monotheistic religion tell you that there is ONLY ONE GOD and messing around with ideas like the Trinity is flat-out idolatry, plain and simple. Only one God. UPC folks would tell you that his name is Jesus. You must pray TO Jesus in the NAME of Jesus by the power of Jesus and with Jesus's Holy Spirit within you. Do it any other way and it won't work. Oh, and the *magical* formula for salvation is found in Acts 2:38. You must be baptized "in the name of Jesus" and *then* speak in tongues or you're going straight to Hell, babe. You don't get away with any weasly, "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" stuff because there's power in the Name of Jesus, and no other Name will do. So 99.99% of y'all are going to Hell because the pastor didn't say the magic words when you were being dunked.

I think both sides get a little dogmatic. If a gun were held to my head, and someone demanded I believe in the Trinity... well, whatever. I'll believe in the Trinity today. If a gun were held to my head, and someone demanded that I renounce the Trinity and believe only in Jesus... well, whatever. I believe only in Jesus.

Can you tell I'm a little wishy-washy on this doctrinal issue?

I would certainly agree with most essentials of the faith. You know, Christ born of a virgin, fulfilling prophecy, risen the third day... all the doctrinal essentials. Except on this *one* thing, I'm very muddled. Both sides in the debate seem to have lots of nifty scriptures to back themselves up.

And it can't be both!! I suppose at this rate, whoever is "right" on this issue doesn't matter because I don't believe strongly enough. I'll wind up in Hell if this is an essential faith issue. And I can't summon up STRONG feelings on either side, no matter how much I look at the scriptures and think about it.

Am I damned or what?

Of course, God is the One who has the final word on these things. And in His blog, He's pretty clear that He is a Trinity:

"See, there are three parts of My Personality: The Angry/Vengeful Father, The Loving/Naive Son, and The Confusing/Lazy Holy Spirit. If you don’t know what that last one is, it’s kind of like the black smoke from Lost.

So that was Me up there on the cross. I mean, I was also in Heaven watching, but whatever. I don’t want to confuse your simple human mind."

http://stuffgodhates.wordpress.com/

Edited to add: Julie has posted her own reply to my post at http://acceptancewithjoy.wordpress.com/2008/05/06/trinity-talk-a-reply/

7 comments:

  1. I believe in the Trinity, but I do not thing God will turn a deaf ear if someone does not say the Holy Spirit. If God answered every prayer in the way we wanted, He would be nothing more than a glorified genie. I think God sees the entire tapestry, and we see only a little thread. So, He will answer our prayers but often in ways we do not understand until later if at all.

    I guess the key points for me is that Jesus kept talking to His Father, not Himself. So, in my opinion, there has to be at least two. When Jesus tried to comfort the disciples, He told them He would send another and that was the third person, the Holy Spirit. I could never explain the three being one though--it just is what it is. LOL!

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  2. I'm not going to argue the point with you because it sounds like you have your mind made up. I just want to give a thought for pondering.

    In rev. John the revolator saw only ONE throne in heavan and only ONE sat on that thrown.
    So if there are three, why is there not three thrones in Heaven.

    Bless you,
    In Jesus' Name

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  3. Thanks, Rock Church.

    I don't feel dogmatic about either position because like I said, convincing arguments seem to be made either way.

    There are times like when Jesus got baptized and there's a Voice from heaven, and other times like in the book of Deuteronomy where it's *very* clear that God is One.

    Then there's the fact that the word "Trinity" is nowhere in the Bible.

    Then there's the first chapter of the Gospel of John where we have the Word (Jesus) being "with God" and we learn the Word "WAS God."

    How can Jesus be "with" God (implying separation) and BE God at the same time? We come to the point that either the Bible is wrong or mistranslated... or my mind is too small to grasp a concept... or there is some third option I haven't heard of that reconciles these phrases.

    OR that God's Word is very obvious on this point, but I am spritually BLIND to it. OK, that's the most scary option.

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  4. If you're going to hell for your beliefs/lack of belief on this topic, so am I. I have Pentecostal relatives, and I was told that I would be going to hell because I didn't speak in tongues. *sigh*

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  5. Let's face it, God's ways are higher than our ways (mine anyway) and we will not completely understand some concepts until we get to Heaven. I believe that there is a Father God, Son (Jesus) and Holy Spirit. Apart from that I cannot tell you the in's and out's of what it all exactly means. And really, people can only speculate about it because it's obviously not absolutely clear in the Bible.

    After reading what Rock Church said, a thought crossed my mind about a verse (Mark 16:19) which says Jesus went to Heaven and sat at the right hand of God. After coming to earth as a baby, living a worldly life, and dying a cruel death, I'm sure he doesn't care what kind of chair he sits in. :)

    Let me know if you figure it all out at some point. :)

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  6. Greetings

    The true of the matter is,
    that BOTH sides are wrong i.e.
    Trinitarians and UPC believers!!

    The Scriptures neither teach that GOD is 3 persons; or that Jesus the Messiah is in fact, Almighty GOD!

    Rather, the Scriptures teach that
    there is solely ONE GOD, the Father.
    And the ONE GOD has made 'one' man, both Lord and Christ,
    namely, Jesus of Nazareth,
    the ONE GOD's human Son!

    [1 Cor 8.4,6; Acts 2.36, 10.36; Phil 2.11, 1 Tim 2.5]

    GOD's final word is the Scriptures.
    And the above simple truth is what the Scriptures declare.

    For more info,
    I recommend this video:
    The Human Jesus

    Take a couple of hours to watch it; and prayerfully it will aid you in your quest for truth.

    Yours In Messiah
    Adam Pastor

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  7. Here are some scriptures that support One God

    God the King: Jesus the King
    PSA 24 MATT 2:1-6
    PSA 44:4 LUKE 19:32-38
    PSA 74:12 LUKE 23:3
    ISA 43:10-15 JOHN 18:37
    ISA 44:6-8 JOHN 19:21
    JER 10:10 1TIM 6:13-16
    ZECH 14:9 REV 15:1-4
    REV 19:11-16

    God the I am Jesus the I am
    and I am HE and I am HE
    EXOD 3:13-14 JOHN 18:5-8
    ISA 43:10-11&25 REV 1:17-18
    JOHN 8:24-28

    All these scriptures given lead to only one thing that Jesus is GOD and there is ONLY ONE GOD and HIS name is JESUS CHRIST.

    Then take John 4:25-26.
    This is the woman at the well talking and she mentions when the messiah comes which is callled the christ he will know all things and Jesus answered her and said I that speaketh unto you am he.

    So he basically just told her he was the messiah.

    I hope some of these scriptures shed some light and answer some questions.

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Non-troll comments always welcome! :)